KT: I think those positions are completely untenable, they grow out of what I call armchair research. I don’t conceive you will find them being espoused by anyone who has actually had the experiences. If they have been through them and want to come back and talk about what happens when they undergo hypnosis, to look at what they consciously remember, then we can have a dialogue. Right now, they are speaking without knowledge. They are speaking hypothetically, and their opinions are based on erroneous understandings of the phenomenon, of the experiences, and of the control exerted upon abductees during these experiences.
It is easy to philosophize any number of explanations, but that does not mean that those explanations have any relationship to what is really going on. Also, there are bad hypnotists and good hypnotists. A bad hypnotist probably can foul up a number of things. I know that people who have gone to hypnotists for smoking or dietary problems have sometimes suffered more after hypnosis. Obviously, some things can be mishandled. But my experience with hypnosis and the veracity of what is recalled has, in several cases, been proven to me to be accurate. I have been able to investigate these cases. At times erroneous material does surface or is created because of the situation, but that is not typical. I conclude that hypnosis is, by and large, one of the most excellent tools we have. Used properly, it may be the only tool we have to get certain pieces of information (or levels of information) back up to the conscious state. I have been able to test a number of hypnotically recalled memories against externally verifiable evidence, and they have proven to be correct.
CF: You have found, have you not, that sometimes there are multiple levels, like the layers of an onion? An experiencer undergoes hypnosis and comes up with a scenario, then, when he is regressed to a deeper level, he breaks through the first level (you find out that it was a screen memory), and a different scenario emerges.
KT: Yes, and it seems to me that, in some cases, a bottom level can be reached.
CF: How many layers are there; how deep can you go; and what’s at the bottom?
KT: We have not done enough research to answer any of those questions without being an armchair philosopher. Typically (not always) the first recall deals mostly with conscious information. When the subject is taken to the next deeper level of the trance state and asked to focus, often what will be reported is that what was seen was not the same as the conscious recall. Then a groping process begins.
The subject thinks, “This was inaccurate; I feel that something was wrong; and when I focus, I see that it was not what I thought it was.” That is a transitional level.
There may be only a couple of levels–as opposed to, say twenty levels–but there certainly is a cover level, underlain by a more solid foundation. If the subjects are helped to program their mental computers to penetrate illusion and to speak only truthful, accurate statements, to, as Barbara has often said, “clarify vision,” then they will recall radically different scenarios–not expanded versions of the firsts scenarios, but something quite different from what their conscious memories had left them with. There are at least two levels, and possibly three.
CF: People have told us that they can break through screen memory after screen memory until they get to a scenario involving reptilians, and that is as far as they can go. Have you found that to be the case?
KT: In the few cases that I am very familiar with, when the “baseline” was reached, reptilians were involved.
CF: Are the greys always involved in the top level?
KT: Sometimes the first level involves greys, sometimes humans, sometimes Pleiadians, sometimes strange animals.
CF: Abductees tell stories of seeing beings–angelic Nordics, for example–and then, when they concentrate and try to focus on their memories of those beings, they disappear, and behind them are these “lizard people.”
KT: I am not familiar with a number of cases. I have heard other researchers talk about the same thing. In one case that I recount in “Into the Fringe,” James had mostly conscious recollections and almost no hypnosis. He remembered being drawn into the proximity of a beautiful “Pleiadian” woman, who was very alluring and tender, and almost seductive. She wanted him to come into her embrace. When he got into the embrace, and thought she was going to kiss him, she disappeared entirely, and what was left in her place was a purplish-black, bumpy, almost slimy-looking character with fairly asymmetrical features.
I have encountered this same type of creature in a couple of other cases. The entity was very strong. Instead of embracing James, the creature threw him down on the ground and shoved a two-foot-long tube down his throat, into his stomach, and pulled up stomach juices. The next day, he still had some of the bile taste, the interior of his throat was sore, and he discovered claw marks around both sides of his neck, where he had been held down. Whatever the entity was, there was something claw-like about it (which, of course, matches reptilians). Maybe, as close as he was to it, he could not perceive the whole figure. But he could see a bumpy covering, which could equate to the rough, scaly exterior sometimes reported to be reptilian. It is described as bumpy, ridged, bony, strong, clawed.
CF: Apparently these beings have the ability to project different images.
KT: Some people say that they transform–that they mutate or change their own real forms. I don’t accept that as accurate. I don’t believe they really look like a blond, and they do something to trick you and then they suddenly look like a reptilian. I think that what they alter is human perception. They certainly can project false images–just as Ted’s [Ted Rice’s] grandmother was shown her dead husband, so that she would consent to have a sexual encounter. Ted’s grandfather had been dead for six years. And in the middle of having the encounter with what she thought was her restored husband, the image disappeared–I suppose because the aliens wanted to get the “emotional juice” from her–and she saw a “reptoid” on top of her.